I got into a discussion on FaceBook recently about Church/State responsibilities. This one started out on a good friend of mine’s page where he stated:
As a pastor I try to steer clear of citing personal preferences when it comes to politics. …. Having said that, I am certainly happy that a man of great integrity and moral character, Paul Ryan from Wisconsin, is a part of the conversation.
Of course this brought on some other friends who stated it is absolutely necessary for pastors to point out God’s standards in guiding his flock in making the proper choices among the candidates. At that point I commented that I don’t think it is God’s standard to take billions away from aid to the poor and give it to millionaires as tax breaks? Of course as an expected response I heard that it is not government’s job to take care of the poor; that is the church’s role. I think I surprised them when I agreed with them entirely.
Here are my further comments on the subject.
I couldn’t agree with you more that it is our job as Christians to take care of the poor. So why is it that we seem to only be able to do about 3% of the job? What do you propose the other 97% of the need do if we take the government safety net away from them. It is nice to sit back and talk about this in abstract but for the last nine years I have spent at least two days a week volunteering at a local homeless shelter and soup kitchen. Every time another piece of the safety net is torn away we get a few more people who rely on us for their nourishment.
So, lets quit spending 90% of what we collect in our churches on ourselves and do like the early Christians did and spend almost all of it on those who are doing without. They called this giving “hospitality” and it was central to their early beliefs. When that happens I will march along side you and I’m sure government will gladly get out of the way. But given how we are doing right now that will take centuries to accomplish. Lets all get out of our pews and into the community where Jesus intended us to be… I am struck by the arrogance of us Christians when all we do is talk about it not being government’s job and then go back to our usual ways.
Every statistic shows that Christians are pretty much like everyone else when it comes to charity, divorce, riches, and other worldly things. I think Jesus is very disappointed in us in that regard. I hope you don’t respond that we are all sinners and somehow that allows us to shirk our responsibilities. Yes, the poor will always be with us especially when we Christians talk in platitudes instead of actually doing things. One of my favorite quotes that isn’t heard much in Christian churches is 1John 3:16. It is interesting that it is so close to the other one. “This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth. “
I am happy that the Lord gave me the proper words in response. I never heard anything more but I hope I at least put a tiny thought into these Evangelical’s hearts.
RJ's Corner 
I am wondering where you get the stat that Christian spending is 90% spent on themselves.
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Hi Janette. It was from a Barna Group study although I can’t locate it at the moment. Other studies that I ran across looking for that number are actually around 95% but I don’t think they are as reliable as Barna. But maybe I didn’t make it clear that this statistic is for the church organization itself, not what the members might give outside of their church donations. But even including individual giving I’m sure the total is still way below the current needs.
If I recall correctly the Catholic church is far and away the biggest contributor outside itself so maybe the 95% was more aligned the the Protestant denominations. I will look for verification and try and post here the result if I can find it.
I know another statistic that got my attention is just how small many Protestant churches are. The Catholic church spreads the wealth so they are not as affected by size as their Protestant neighbors. Since I was on the church council for several years of the small Lutheran church where I was asked to leave I know for a fact that this church spend about 98% on themselves. This was just a survival thing. The vast majority of the money went to the pastor’s salary first (it amazes me how much they earn) and for the mortgage and utilities second. There was very little left for anything else. They did send about 5% back to the national body but again most of that was spent on buildings and salaries of the national staff.
There would have to be a massive increase in church donations for them to even approach taking over their duties of helping the poor.
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That’s very interesting that you mentioned the Barna Group. Are you aware of this current article they wrote:
http://www.barna.org/donorscause-articles/571-the-economy-continues-to-squeeze-americans-charitable-giving
Apparently Americans are so squeezed by the current economic crisis and the increase in taxes they paid, will pay or are going to pay come January 1, 2013 (a middle class family will pay $4100 MORE in taxes starting on the 1st of the year, unless something is done) that charitable giving among Americans are down 41%. Over 11% of Americans have given up completely and stopped donations altogether.
Were these statistics included in your calculations?
Jesus said to render to Caesar what is Caesars. I don’t recall however, what Jesus said to do when Caesar was just an outright thief. Do you?
Jesus also said that we will ALWAYS have with us the poor, sick and infirm. We will also have people who just don’t want to work. Period.
The bible you are quoting from is the New International Version. I don’t like the word “NEW” when dealing with a bible. There’s nothing ‘NEW’ about the bible, which BTW was written thousands of years ago.
The passage that you mentioned is very perplexing:
“If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? ”
Sounds to me that that person who has a material possession must be rich or something. So, only a person of poverty can have the love of God because that person has no material possession? What can a person of poverty do for another person of poverty? For, according to this passage, only someone of material possession is capable of showing pity to someone less fortunate. That means only a rich person can take pity on a poor person? If so, better be nice to rich people. Otherwise, you’ll get nothing? Rather confusing, wouldn’t you say?
Lastly, if a church needs $9,000 a year to stay afloat, and can only raise $10,000 a year in donations, then of course 90% of the donations are going to be used to keep the church doors open, pay the salary, utilities etc. etc. Only 10% can be given away in donations. Sounds awful, right? Until you hear the exact income to expense ratio. You left that out, so it’s difficult for me to make a judgment.
I think what you have described is a Catch-22. Who should help the poor more? The people or the government? The church or the government? With everyone being so economically squeezed, I think the poor should start helping themselves. God does help those who help themselves, doesn’t He? The people can’t help anymore because they are being taxed to death. The church can’t help anymore because they have to pay their own expenses to remain open. The government can’t help anymore because despite all their taxation, they’re bankrupt.
PS: your own pastor was not making a political call. He was just stating it must be a nice breath of fresh air to find out a candidate, such as Paul Ryan had morals and integrity. Yup. It certainly is a very nice thing indeed.
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Hi Hank. You certainly have a lot to say here. If you have material possessions you assume God is talking to the rich only. I don’t see it like that. You assume that everyone can just help themselves. I know that not to be the case. You say everyone is in a Catch 22 and it is up to the poor to take care of themselves. Again I don’t see it that way. What are we to do with those who can’t help themselves. That is the catch 22 for me.
I’m sure Paul Ryan is a noble person but I think he is misguided in several of his world viewpoints. But I’m sure I would never be able to convince you otherwise…
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Whatever the percentages are, the resources of the U.S. government vs. the resources of the churches are not even close. There is no way the safety net can be taken up by the resources of the churches (as Hank pointed out, the churches need those donations to run the churches.)
Somehow I don’t buy that if that $4,100 tax cut is preserved, those folks will turn around and use it to help the poor. Sorry, but I just don’t think people are that generous.
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I never said that the middle classer who will have his taxes raised by $4100 would give that money to help the poor. The person could not, however, continue to donate as he or she had before, if they had donated in the first place, if their taxes continue to go up. Common sense.
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I understood. I was merely trying to point out the math, that if you cut taxes (government resources) the programs that will have to be cut cannot possibly be made up by generous individuals. I simply propose that the % of that $4,100 that goes to help folks in need is greater in the hands of government than in the hands of that individual. But sure, iPhone sales might increase . . .
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Thank you…reality is a lot more sobering than high flown ideas!
b
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Thanks Syd and Barb for your comments. It has been shown time and again that when we give big tax breaks to the upper income all they do is stash it away in some account, often off-shore tax shelters.
As B says reality is sobering.
Hank needs to study his Bible some more as his quote “God helps those who help themselves” is not in the Bible it is from Ben Franklins Poor Richards Alamac of 1757. And of course he needs to look at some of those 780 places in the New Testament (or whatever he wants to call it) where the poor and taking care of the poor is mentioned. 780 times in the Bible verses one quote from Ben Franklin, I think I know which one means more to me.
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I didn’t say that the quote came from the bible, did I? This is what I wrote:
“God does help those who help themselves, doesn’t He? ” I’m asking a question. As you are also asking a question in this post: “Whose Responsibility?”
I simply am pointing out that the poor can no longer depend on a bankrupt government to help them anymore ($17 trillion in debt and counting. Eventually this government may have to declare bankruptcy.). As America defaults, it has no choice but to continue to cut services. So, America is unreliable. The poor can no longer depend on churches or organized religions to help them out either as they all are financially strapped. So, what’s the solution?
My answer is the individual. It is up to people like you and I to do something to help out the poor. I do it daily by helping an elderly woman cross the street, secretly paying a bill of someone I see financially struggle (either at the supermarket or a restaurant), dropping of a basket of food at a pantry or collection sight, giving a person a word of encouragement, or listening to them complain (sometimes all a person needs is a willing ear). Just throwing money in some collection box at a church does nothing.
I also know that poverty can not be cured nor erased off the face of the earth. Jesus made that very clear. We will ALWAYS have that person who just will not work for him or herself. But for the others, I am certain that what they would like is a job. I am certain that they don’t like handouts. I am certain that these individuals would love the opportunity to be able to take care of themselves. They would love to be productive. They would love to have a job.
So, who is capable of giving these people a job? It’s not the person who has been in office for the past 3.5 years. He’s proven that all he can do is continue the handouts. That’s the point you are sadly missing. Your pastor knows the answer. You don’t.
Once people have a job, they can earn their own money, take care of themselves and if they have anything left over, make donations to churches once again. They can also do their part to help others who refuse to work. Get it? The JOB is THEE answer.
Please don’t make judgment calls on another’s interpretation of the bible. It demeans you. Nor set yourself up as a Mr. Know-It-All. That’s why organized religion fails. The bible is to be read and revealed as each person understands God’s word. I’d be suspect, however, of new and improved publications.
You’re looking for someone or something else to solve world problems. Whereby the answer resides in yourself. What have you done personally to help another person? Unless you’ve been able to look inside their eyes, you’ve done nothing at all.
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Hank, as I mentioned before on this blog I look into their eyes two days every week for the last nine years. I think that give me some right to say that not everyone can just go out and “get a job” and that will end poverty and need.
You used the Franklin quote in attacking my quote from the Bible so I assumed that you were pitting Franklin against Jesus. If that was not the case then I admit my error. But as far as the Mr. Know-It-All that is exactly how your comments, which are actually longer than the post itself, come off. So maybe both of us have to watch how people take what we say.
I won’t keep you any longer I know you have a convention to watch this week.
God bless your efforts to help the “least of these”.
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I have no problem with the safety net for the poor. I do have a problem with the hundreds of loop holes for those who can hire an accountant.
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Well said Janette
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